Child Abuse!!

[absinthe_spoons]

I am just kind of boggling over here. In fact, I've gathered a crowd to goggle and boggle and things that end in -oggle. WTF? Do none of you even have the most basic education in child psychology? There's a reason that spanking is illegal in over twenty countries.
Pediatricians and psychiatrists are widely opposed to spanking, and rightly so. Spanking is a promotion of an aggressive physical approach to life, and an ineffective method of deterrance of a child's bad behaviour. Deserved? You deserved it?! Right, 'cause that's what's important. Discipline should not be about punishment, it should be about enforcing the preferred behaviour in children. IMO the only instance where physicality should enter the equation is when the child's safety is in immediate danger.
And it's cyclical, too -- a reliance on corporal punishment has been shown to reduce the effectiveness of other kinds of discipline. So of course it's going to be the only thing that works on a child who's been spanked -- they've been socialized to respond to being spanked. Anything else is getting off easy.
I don't think I'm being overly judgemental when I say that parents who spank their children have serious flaws in their parenting styles. People who have been spanked as children are naturally going to be biased on the issue, since it's their own parents they would be criticizing. They love their parents and don't want to think that their parents made mistakes in raising them. But honestly, if you were spanked and turned out OK, it's not because you were spanked. It's in spite of it.

[trailerman]

I've got an idea : I give you a 15 year old huligan and teach him about manners without spanking.

[absinthe_spoons]

FIFTEEN?
Um. Spanking a fifteen-year-old is illegal. In Canada, at least. As is spanking a kid who is not yours.
Also, you're just proving my point. That hooligan won't respond to anything but spanking because he's been socialized to respond to spanking.
Also also, if he's a hooligan his parents have clearly already made serious errors in parenting.

[trailerman]

Now this one: a kid gets on the top of main xmas tree, and sings rude songs. He comes down and you just speak to him. And next he'll probably get on a rocket.

[absinthe_spoons]

Now this one: a kid gets on the top of main xmas tree, and sings rude songs. He comes down and you just speak to him. And next he'll probably get on a rocket.

1. You've already screwed up by letting him climb a christmas tree in the first place. Parenting fail.
2. If he's socialized properly, he will respond to non-physical means of discipline, and not "get on a rocket".
3. If he's been socialized improperly and will only respond to being spanked, that's because he's been taught that spanking is the be-all-end-all of child discipline, because he's been spanked throughout his childhood.

[TheCabbageMerchant]

!

[Sejame]

Heh.

Nice to be labelled uneducated by someone who so quickly falls into the pitt of anti-spanking flaws.

Spanking is not a promotion of aggressive behaviour.There is no credible evidence whatsoever in existance that shows that it is. You are not seperating spankings from beatings. You are not speaking about spanking done correctly but spanking used out of anger.

Sure there are studies that show that spanking is bad but these studies are highly, highly flawed in spanking debates.
It's something like over 80% of these studies on spanking that are done on children over ten years old. If you are resorting to spanking someone over ten, yes, there's a problem there. The studies are right that spanking after this age is INEFFECTIVE and has no parental merit. Not because of spanking is ineffective but because the parents haven't established an adequate or effective parenting method throughout the childs life.

If spanking has been their only form of punishment then this would be why. After ten a child should be at the point where they can be reasoned with.

These studies also don't take into consideration that spanking is only one behaviour a parent displays. What has been shown to influence a child far more than a occasional spank is how a parent speaks to their child, how they react verbally to the childs behaviour.
They also don't seperate spanking from abuse.

Spanking needs to used in conjunction with other punishments, such as time outs. It needs to be controlled and used as a last resort after a warning has been given. Never when a parent is angry. It is to be used sparingly and should be used very rarely if a parent is showing supervision, nurturing behaviour and structure.
If a parent ONLY uses spanking then there will be issues.
If a parent is too permissive then the results can be worse than even those that use only spanking as a punishment.

My bottom line. Spanking used properly is not a terrible thing and can be very effective. I don't think any of us was saying it should be the only form of punishment.
Whether it should be used ever is only an opinion, not a fact, such as you are making it out to be.

Oh yeah. The Bible says you should spank your kids. We all know the Bible never lies

[absinthe_spoons]

Nice to be labelled uneducated by someone who so quickly falls into the pitt of anti-spanking flaws.

I'm sorry about that part, Sejame, and I didn't mean it. I respect the hell out of you and have never considered you lacking in education. Your point of view, I'll say this right now, is more thoroughly researched than mine. But I still think you're too close to the issue, as is anyone who has experienced corporal punishment. And I do not believe that you ended up the way you did because your parent(s) used spanking. I can't argue against personal experience, as my parents never spanked me, but neither do I believe anecdotes of personal experience to be relevant. It's a highly, highly subjective situation.
You're right about the studies on spanking being shaky, but I don't think they can be dismissed entirely.
The system you described does seem fair to me, I'll admit, but... quite honestly it sounds like the exception. It's quite possible that that's me stereotyping, but parents are people too, and fallible, and I believe that a system that includes spanking is more precarious than one that doesn't.
OT, but who would have guessed that a Kool topic could become so serious business?

[Sejame]

OT, but who would have guessed that a Kool topic could become so serious business?

Lol, I was going to put this in my last post. Especially with how it started.

I may be too close to the issue, in that the method of spanking I am talking about is what I've learned from my parents. My mum always said that my grandad would be overly harsh with his spankings and although all of them acted good and were well behaved it wasn't about right or wrong it was that they were just terrified of their dad and didn't want to dare cross him. None of them had a good relationship with him because of it and she didn't want it to be the same way with her kids, yet still wanted to discipline us.
( I also find it so hard to believe my grandad spanking anyone too harshly, he was always the nicest guy ever to me and my sisters but grandparents are that way I suppose. )

But anyway, as I said before I haven't had to spank my kids yet, at all. I'm not sure if I ever really will but I'm definately prepared to if the siuation arises. Usually my big voice works just fine and if my four year old is in a time out and refusing to serve his time, a warning about confiscating his Elmo is far more effective than a spank would be.

EDIT: What would your parents do to punish you? Or were you generally an angel? I just imagine you being one of those kids above their age group and adults usually HATE those with a passion, being that they can't be fed the usual rubbish about why they are being told to do something,

[trailerman]

If the kid is spanked up, he at least know what's the limit and pain. Certainly, he can become a criminal, but it depends on the kid's will already. A spoiled child has less chances to adapt in this world due to the fact that he doesn't know the limit.